Putin = Hero

Out of context: Reply #138

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  • yuekit3

    All this blame the West stuff is just a little too easy isn't it? In reality there is zero threat to Russia from Ukraine, just like there is zero threat to PRC from Taiwan.

    The scenario Putin puts forward that if Ukraine *someday joins NATO then it could lead to WW3 in eastern Ukraine is absurd -- it's a situation he created himself by invading and annexing part of Ukraine.

    Clearly Putin, the guy who has massed hundreds of thousands of troops on Ukraine's border, doesn't care about avoiding war. He's using the threat of NATO expansionism (and even more ridiculously, "ethnic cleansing" of Russians) cynically as an excuse to exploit smaller countries in Russia's periphery.

    yuekit 3Permalink
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    • And your position, is the other way around. "blame the East stuff". Methinks you occupy the same black and white world as hotroddy.Khurram
    • Aaand you snuck in a strawman about "threat to PRC from Taiwan". That's not even the issue over there.Khurram
    • Hey I like to think I'm pretty balanced, I hate all geographic directions equally :)yuekit
    • And PRC absolutely does pretend that Taiwan somehow poses a threat to them, as silly as that sounds. Think of it as Russia and China's own version of WMD.yuekit
    • Good read: https://nationalinte…Khurram
    • ^ The reason Ukraine is talking down the threat is because if people think an invasion is imminent it will crash the economy.yuekit
    • But remember, Russia has already invaded Ukraine multiple times. It's not exactly a far fetched scenario.yuekit
    • Russia also literally committed genocide in Ukraine under Stalin (3.5 million killed). Ukrainians have plenty of reason to distrust Russia and want freedom.yuekit
    • That's total crap. Both PRC and a Taiwan claim to be the one nation of China. That's not at all what's going on with Ukraine. Complete spin you're putting on thKhurram
    • Also, you have argued, for the second time now (Including in the China/Taiwan thread), that anyone who argued against the Washington narrative, is reflexively aKhurram
    • anti-West. That's an ad hominem avoiding the actual argument at hand.Khurram
    • No I said it's a lazy argument. Of course the West and USA have plenty of atrocities and bad actions they have committed as well.yuekit
    • But simply invoking NATO expansion or Western imperialism as a catch all excuse is nonsense. It doesn't justify Russia or China's own imperialism againstyuekit
    • smaller countries. And looking at it objectively, does Ukraine pose any sort of real threat to Russia? Does Taiwan pose a threat to PRC? No.yuekit
    • No you said you're anti-West if you don't buy into the Washington narrative... BTW, what's that "tankies" slur you came out with? I didn't Google...Khurram
    • Something coming out of Hong Kong about the "Western" left? Like a nickname they have. *guffaw*Khurram
    • We're not talking about Western or US atrocities. We're talking about the crisis in Ukraine. Your point is moot. Moot point!Khurram
    • lol Khurram it's going to take a lot of notes to fully explain my views on all of this. But yeah, I was against the Iraq War, War on Terror, all that stuff.yuekit
    • So of course I'm not in favor of buying into "the Washington narrative." At the same time I've noticed a kind of dumbed down anti-West narrative emerge inyuekit
    • recent times, funded by the Russian state, the CCP and other powerful non-Western interests in the world.yuekit
    • As Nairn says above, wEsT bAd, RuSsIa & cHiNa GoOd. This is no better than brainlessly following the so-called Western narrative.yuekit
    • Yes, notes are not the best way to discuss anything on here. I got spanish lesson. Laterz.Khurram
    • And ultimately, would I want to live under European social democracy or Putinist reactionary kleptocracy? Of course I pick the first one, are you seriouslyyuekit
    • going to pretend you wouldn't as well? And if not, who are you to tell Ukrainians or Taiwanese what system they deserve to live under?yuekit
    • There you are again with the strawmen.Khurram
    • So you agree Russia shouldn't invade right? What are we even arguing about here then? :)yuekit
    • If there's an intelligent, defensible version of events where Russia is somehow the victim in all this I haven't seen it yet, that's all I'm saying.yuekit
    • uno: https://www.youtube.… dos: https://external-pre… tres: https://qph.fs.quorKhurram
    • cuatro: https://www.youtube.… cinco: https://nationalinte…Khurram
    • << And also what you posted here is stupid strawmen ad hominem attacks.Khurram
    • oldie, but a goldie: https://www.foreigna…Khurram
    • Your #1 source is Putin himself? Haha OK bro...yuekit
    • behind paywall, let me know if you need me to send you the text: https://www.foreigna…Khurram
    • Second and third source dead link. Fifth one you already posted. So we're left with one guy giving a speech about how "the West created Putin." Not sure whatyuekit
    • relevance that has to Russia invading Ukraine.yuekit
    • ? https://external-pre…Khurram
    • ?? https://qph.fs.quora…Khurram
    • sounded like you needed reminding of why we're arguing :PKhurram
    • Do you remember, 20 years ago, gosh, with Iraq, when people would say to you if you're against the war you support tyranny and Saddam and are against freedumbs?Khurram
    • Do your remember this? I mean, c'mon. Do better.Khurram
    • Right and like I said I opposed the Iraq War but that doesn't mean EVERY conflict in the world is the USA's fault.yuekit
    • strawman!Khurram
    • What you haven't really done here is make the connection to the current situation in Ukraine. Is the USA actually threatening Russia somehow?yuekit
    • And please learn the actual definitions of the terms ad hom and strawman, they are not the same thing :)yuekit
    • Yes i know. Strawman is when you posit an unrelated argument to win a separate argument, example, in a argument on the Ukraine crisis:Khurram
    • Every conflict isn't the USA's fault!" Now you're arguing about whether every conflict is the USA's fault or whether some are not. Uhmmm ?Khurram
    • Ad hominem - when you attack the people making the argument rather than the argument being made.Khurram
    • As in when you say those of us who are presenting a counter-narrative to the one from Washington as "blaming the West for everything" as in this postKhurram
    • or are reflexively "anti-West" as you have said in other posts. We are not! Mischaracterization! Ad hom!Khurram
    • God, these notes blow! You're right. No point. Arguing about arguing now. *out*Khurram
    • Ad hom would be more like if you refused to believe something simply because Fox News or whatever reported it.yuekit
    • Pointing out that some people have a reflexive anti-Western view isn't ad hom at all.yuekit
    • What I'm still waiting for is any kind of coherent argument that connects the existence of US military bases in Europe with Russia needing to invade Ukraine.yuekit
    • People offer this up as if it makes the argument for them but it really doesn't. USA has no plans to attack Russia -- would be insane for them to do so.yuekit
    • Widen your reading.Khurram
    • The origin of the term tankie BTW is that during the 60s, there were democratic uprisings in some of the USSR conquered territories. The USSR sent in tanksyuekit
    • to crush the revolutions killing thousands of people. Some Westerners stupidly cheered the USSR on as they did this using similar arguments as you hear today.yuekit
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