Nonbinary

Out of context: Reply #28

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    Fucking hell, sr_rosa. I don't know if you've lost track of the issues because of all the lengthy, winding posts, or you're just simply out of your intellectual depth.

    The issue here isn't *changing* one's gender. No-one here is denying anyone the right to get hormone therapy and gender-reassignment surgery to help them self-actualise and live their lives as they feel they should.

    The issue here is 'non-binary'. It's the principle that someone is so fucking confused about their own gender identity, that they can't nail down who they want to be, and thus float around life thinking they're some tenth indeterminate sex. And this is very much a *personal* issue that they themselves have the sole responsibility to solve on their own, one way or another.

    I invite you to read one of the articles in the issue of National Geographic that zarkonite posted:

    http://www.nationalgeographic.co…

    In it, we explore the lives of a number of trans children who were born one way, identified another way, and ended up in a place where they were what they felt.

    In other words: they transitioned from one binary state (boy/girl) to another binary state (boy/girl).

    Why did that happen, you might ask? Because human beings simply can not function in a perpetual state of confusion. It's outright hardmful to us. We need to arrive at a fixed and ordered point in order to thrive. Consider: ask any gay or lesbian person what their lives were like when they felt they had to hide they were. Utter, life-sucking chaos, I'll bet.

    There are other children in this article which have had genetic problemsL namely, interesex traits. It should come as no surprise to anyone that will absolutely do a real job on someone's sense of who they are, but guess what? They are helped medically and therapeutically to arrive at a point where they can self-actualise and live out their lives as whatever gender they choose.

    The issue here are the ones who use such idiotic terms as 'gender expansive' and 'gender fluid', and insist on being addressed as 'they', 'ze' and other nonsense. These are the people who — despite being in a nearly imperceptible minority, for the legitimate cases (and I'm going to ignore inevitable bandwagon-ism on the part of others who see this as a convenient of not having to conform to the norms of civil society) — are expecting us to enable their refusal to take responsibility for their own physical and mental health. And using the term 'nonbinary' on an official document like a driving license is the height of entitlement and enablement.

    No-one is suggesting that they should not have the rights the rest of us have. But we are strongly suggesting they take personal responsibility, and sort their situations.

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    • I know exactly what I'm talking about. YOU, thinking you can force others to adapt their identities to YOUR narrow understanding of the world just because YOU...sr_rosa
    • ...are too fucking lazy to address them in any way they want, which don't affect you in any way, or too simple minded to understand that genres other than binary...sr_rosa
    • ...are present in many cultures in different ways, sometimes as a third genre, sometimes as something else, then the rest of the world has to adapt to YOUR...sr_rosa
    • ...limitations. Genre and sexuality, both being an spectrum and not a binary position, is present in studies in the 40s, way beyond the LGBT liberation movement...sr_rosa
    • ...started, so it's not a response to minorities pressure, but based on observation. Not everyone is just 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual, and it can change...sr_rosa
    • ...over time, that's why it's considered fluid. Also happens with genre, although genre is not usually fluid so often because it's rooted in many different...sr_rosa
    • ...aspects and not just social construction — although some theories think it is — and usually what changes more often is genre expression.sr_rosa
    • That said, maybe you don't like using them, or ze, or whatever. But that the need exist for a new way to address people who doesn't identify themselves on...sr_rosa
    • ...one of the binary genres, and language will evolve, as it always does, even if YOU don't want or don't care.sr_rosa
    • What is genre? As in I'm a romantic comedy kinda guy? ;-)Ianbolton
    • "LANGUAGE WILL EVOLVE'. Making it a legal requirement to use certain pronouns is not evolution.Morning_star
    • If people start using them, it is.sr_rosa
    • People are forced and coerced to use them. That is by definition anti-evolution.Morning_star
    • The snowflake rosa is meltingimbecile
    • Language change as people use it. If people start using those words, whatever the reason, language will change. If they don't, it won't. It's not hard.sr_rosa
    • 'Whatever the reason...'. Sorry but no, the reason is absolutely everything.Morning_star
    • In terms of how a language changes over time, it's not. In terms of law enforcement being appropriate or effective, or ethically questionable, maybe.sr_rosa
    • Should a person be free to choose a different identifying pronoun on a monthly basis? And, have the weight of the law behind them when someone gets it wrong?Morning_star
    • The hypothetical case you draw is almost impossible. Gender identity may change, but it's not likely. Gender expression is more likely to be fluid.sr_rosa
    • Law should enforce you to use proper pronoun and to not use repeatedly a pronoun different of what is appropriate.sr_rosa
    • It's not that you have to guess and if you're wrong they are going to kill you and your family and burn your bodies to ashes.sr_rosa
    • You'll have to explain a little more about the 'fluid' nature of gender expression but not gender identity. Are they not the same?Morning_star
    • They are not. Gender identity is how you identify yourself, and gender expression is how you express your gender ‘socially’. For example, drag queens are often...sr_rosa
    • ...men that use expression for both genders or a mix of both, but that doesn't mean they are not clearly men. Of course may be different cases, but a man that...sr_rosa
    • ...dresses himself clearly as a man — or what socially may be expected of a man — in his everyday life, but as a woman when in drag/performing uses different...sr_rosa
    • ...expressions being a single person with a clear gender identity.sr_rosa
    • Which does the pronoun refer to, identity or expression? For instance in the case of a passport which would you use.Morning_star
    • you - a person.Morning_star
    • Good question. Passport and other documents used one form for men and two for women, one for unmarried ones and another for married ones. That's archaic and...sr_rosa
    • ...sexist, so it changed to use just one for men and one for women. If there is a need, it has to change again. A gender neutral form would be easier IMO.sr_rosa
    • Gender is a specific and legal requirement on Passports, Birth Certificates, Driving Licences etc. These are official documents that legally prove ones...Morning_star
    • ...identity for social housing, welfare, prison. Which prison do you send the male that identifies as Zim.Morning_star
    • Germany, Canada and Australia recognise ‘x/indeterminate’ as a gender, and ‘Mx’ is recognised as a title for non-binary in UK.sr_rosa
    • That not to mention India or Thailand with greatest tradition of third gender. Who created problems like the ones you propose are who stablished gender...sr_rosa
    • So the law being against you is bad, but the law forcing others to conform to your worldview is good? Did you notice black people did not ask to ban the N word?zarkonite
    • ...specific prisons. Is not responsibility of non-binary people to address those problems.sr_rosa
    • There's a lesson in there for you. It might actually help you also understand why Trump happened... this coercive attitude will get you nowhere.zarkonite
    • For example, if some country have separated prisons for heterosexuals and homosexuals, where should bisexuals be placed? Is them who created the problem?sr_rosa
    • Coercive needs force, so minorities can't by definition be coercive. But privileged majorities blaming the victims of oppression of their oppression is not new.sr_rosa
    • Trump happened because ignorant gullible people who fool themselves to believe what they want to believe despite of reality voted for him.sr_rosa
    • But as I'm not an US citizen and can't vote for or against him, you can blame yourself for that.sr_rosa
    • @zarkonite - Trump happened because neoliberalism is failing. Obama was a neolib, as was/is Hillary. Neoliberalism has v.little to do with the liberal left.fadein11
    • Yo can't have it both ways sr_rosa. Your stereotyping of majorities is heavy with prejudice.Morning_star
    • Well, as I have never lived nor voted in the US, my vision on the topic is necessarily one from distance. But a prejudice from one individual towards majority...sr_rosa
    • ...doesn't have any effect, and prejudice from majority to individuals or minorities is oppression, specially if backed by administration and authority.sr_rosa
    • And again, I give you arguments and answer questions and you just judge me.sr_rosa
    • And — and that is opinion, because I can judge too — that is the root of the problem, people able to treat others as inferior because they think intentions are...sr_rosa
    • ...the most important aspect, and as they are good in the inside, they can oppress others and be morons and assholes, because their intentions are good.sr_rosa
    • ‘I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
      Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood’      sr_rosa
    • "Coercive needs force, so minorities can't by definition be coercive." i think you're wrong. It is entirely relative as to who is in the minority and who...Morning_star
    • ...is being coerced. If there's a group of 20 nonbinary people vs a lone Nazi by your definition the nonbinary folk are the oppressors. From my perspective...Morning_star
    • ...the numbers are irrelevant. Oppression is oppression, prejudice is prejudice whether you are the minority or the majority.Morning_star
    • We are talking society and coercive measures. Unless those 21 people are a society by their own for life, your example is not valid.sr_rosa
    • And I'm surprised you have choosen a Nazi to represent social majority. That speaks volumes about your perception.sr_rosa
    • White people accusing others of racism, men accusing women of sexism... Fun as an example of how people with privilege perceive reality, but nuts.sr_rosa
    • Nope. A society is any number of people living in a community. And I used Nazi as an extreme example so that you understood the polarity of my point...Morning_star
    • ...rather than causing confusion. It was in no way intended as a representation of a social majority. Although if this was Berlin in 1944 you may have a point.Morning_star
    • Again, those made up impossible examples are fun when talking about ideas. When people fight for their rights, not so much.sr_rosa
    • What if their rights directly conflict with someone else's freedom? Is there compromise?Morning_star
    • And who is majority or minority doesn't change the fact that a minority can't be coercive.sr_rosa
    • A minority can be coercive. Where are you getting these ideas from? I'm pretty certain the Conquistadores were the minority in New World.Morning_star
    • "Coercive needs force, so minorities can't by definition be coercive." LOL, most totalitarian regimes are minorities ruling over the majority =) Do you knowzarkonite
    • nothing of slavery or Europe's domination of the world?zarkonite
    • Sure, or in a post-apocalyptic Mad-Max type of world. Meanwhile, in real life, minorities can't be coercive in the sense zarkonite implied.sr_rosa
    • Why not? You keep saying that minorities can't be coerced as though it's a universal truth but you provide no rationalisation or evidence for the claim.Morning_star
    • Yes I did, you were not paying attention. Zarkonite wrote about coercive law inforcement. That is not coerce by brute force or intimidation, but systemic power...sr_rosa
    • ...and in a modern democracy a minority never have the power of the system to be coercive in that way. You just keep running around and speaking whatever comes...sr_rosa
    • ...to your mind without understanding the conversation or taking context into consideration, inventing whatever hypothetical impossible scenario fit your bias.sr_rosa
    • Now tell me how in a comunist totalitarian regime two hundred years in the future ruled by spongebob would be different.sr_rosa
    • By the way, you still haven't in this or other conversations provided ANY evidence or rationalisation to anything you said.sr_rosa
    • Just judged my intentions, my comprehension, invented surreal scenarios, and whining.sr_rosa
    • Hey, look up gerrymandering. I'm positive that Trump won with fewer votes, is he not representing a minority? Or Erdogan? Or Putin? Macron in france wonzarkonite
    • with one of the lowest votre turn out. As for minorities taking over, study Rwanda or Irak.zarkonite
    • and what evidence have you presented for any of your points? I actually showed you a nice natgeo article based on science that dismantles most of what you say.zarkonite
    • @sr_rosa. Ok i think i get where you're coming from now with this coercion thing. Correct me if i'm wrong. Because the system of power is democratic there...Morning_star
    • ...must be a majority. Because the majority hold the power the minority by definition are powerless. If the majority rule that the minority (for whatever...Morning_star
    • ...reason) are not free to do the 'thing' that they want, they are oppressed. If the minority are made to adapt their behaviour they are coerced. Does that...Morning_star
    • ...accurately reflect your position?Morning_star
    • Not at all. Minorities are oppressed when their rights are not respected — ie., as most people is ok with binary gender, suck it up and choose one or another.sr_rosa
    • Everyone is coerced to change their behaviour when it's against the law. That is not my position but how the world works.sr_rosa
    • I know the article, which point of it proves me wrong? It talks about transgender and intersexuals, as I did, all the elements that construct gender identity...sr_rosa
    • ...some biological/physical but not all, and it's never a binary black or white matter, as I wrote.sr_rosa
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