Jehovah's Witness
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- discipler0
fusion41...
1. No. Doctrines as described in the Bible and which the early church clearly adhered to (There is no record of the early believers teaching anything like what Watchtowerites believe. See: http://www.equip.org/free/DJ570-…)
2. Christianity did not become polluted until the 3rd century when Constantine married it with Greek paganism and declared it the state religion. Still there always remained a remnant of faithful believers.
3. The Crusaders were not Christians. They only professed to be. Their actions proved demonstrated this.
- brandelec0
you're right JW peeps are some of the nicest people, i remember our HS valedictorian was JW and he was the coolest nicest person
- discipler0
I've got a great JW friend who comes by and visits somewhat regularly. Always have good discussions. Of course I've known some super nice Mormon folks too. Very family-oriented they are.
- Mimio0
I can imagine it now Discipler
D: "Would you like a cup of coffee?'
JW: "sure thanks"
D:"You know you're going to hell don't you?"
JW: "I don't believe in hell"
D:"That's not important right now..."
- discipler0
lol @ mimio. you're so silly.
Actually, it's more like:
D: "How's the family?"
JW: "Great... "
JW: "Here's the latest Watchtower. There's a great article on..."
D: "Woh! That bee just barely missed your head. Would you like to come in for a cold drink?"
JW: "Oh, no thanks, the family is down the street. I need to catch up with them. But first, I wanted to share this scripture with you..."
D: "Thanks for sharing that. Now, let's look at it in context..."
:)
- livenootrac0
What Discipler said.
- arinya0
I can imagine it now Discipler
D: "Would you like a cup of coffee?'
JW: "sure thanks"
D:"You know you're going to hell don't you?"
JW: "I don't believe in hell"
D:"That's not important right now..."
Mimio(May 4 05, 11:12)
Bwhahahaha...sounds right.
- ********0
jw: *knock knock on door
k: *opens door in satan costume
"i've been waiting for you"that's pretty much how i have it going in my mind.
- fusion410
Hey Disciper
Interesting read (although I didnt get though it all... Im at work)
Some of the facts about our beliefs aren’t quite right.
I’ve never heard it said there was a sudden turn to apostacy after the apostles died. There was a gradual deviation from bible teaching and a gradual adoption of pagan rituals. We also do not believe there was always a group that held to our beliefs.
As for Christ not being created, not sure how you could view it any other way. If your going to say that God creating Jesus comes from pagan doctrine you would have to arrive at the same conclusion regarding the trinity. There is no evidence to support that the apostles regard ed Christ as part of a trinity and it wasnt until the Council of Nicea that the church officially adopted it as doctrine.
- brandelec0
jw: *knock knock on door
k: *opens door in satan costume
"i've been waiting for you"that's pretty much how i have it going in my mind.
kOna
(May 4 05, 11:37)hahahha at first i read santa which would also be funny
- discipler0
Hey fusion,
I'd be interested in knowing what specific beliefs are misrepresented in that treatment. It may be that the Watchtower has revised more of their doctrines since that was written.
The Watchtower has led you to believe, via their constant reinforcement and repetition in the Watchtower magazines, that the early believers held to Watchtower beliefs. This is categorically false. As the treatment I've linked demonstrates from legitimate history. In fact, you don't encounter anything even remotely similar to a single JW deviant doctrine until the 4th century when Arius of Alexandria began espousing that Christ was a creature.
Did the early church believers believe Christ was God? Let's take a look at some direct quotes (keep in mind that many of these church leaders were direct disciples of the apostles - second and third generation Christians and well before the council of Nicea):
Ignatius -
"The source of your unity and election is genuine suffering which you undergo by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God."
"There is one only physician — of flesh yet spiritual, born yet unbegotten, God incarnate, genuine life in the midst of death, sprung from Mary as well as God...Jesus Christ our Lord."
"For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived in the womb by Mary...of the Holy Ghost."
Polycarp (direct disciple of John the Apostle) -
"May He grant unto you a lot and a portion among His saints...who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in His Father that raised Him from the dead."
Irenaeus -
"He is Himself in His own right God and Lord and Eternal King and Only begotten and Incarnate Word, proclaimed as such by all the Prophets and by the Apostles and by the Spirit Himself...The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man."
... these are just a few of many many excerpts from the early church leaders. I'll now share where the Bible clearly teaches that Christ is God...
- discipler0
fusion, I believe in the Trinity because the Bible teaches the doctrine. It does so not by using the specific word "Trinity," but by teaching the three pillars that make up the doctrine. First, that there is only one true God, Jehovah, Creator of all things. Surely you agree with me there. Next, that there are three divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I realize you do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person, but you do agree that the Father and the Son are not the same person, correct? Finally, the third pillar, the point on which we are in direct disagreement, is the Bible’s teaching of the full equality of these divine persons. This would include the deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. At this point, it's important that I remove a semantic barrier: when I say "God" I mean, as the Bible teaches, a plurality within the nature of God - 3 persons as 1 God. When JW's hear "God" they immediately think of the person of the Father exclusively.
The New Testament records Jesus Christ’s direct claims to deity. In John 8:58, He claims to be Yahweh, the same one who spoke to Moses at the burning bush. The Jews certainly understood this as a claim to deity because they immediately grabbed stones and tried to stone him for blasphemy. In Mark 14:61, Jesus claims to be the Messiah and expresses the prerogatives of deity.
He receives worship (Matt. 4:10; 28:17), which is an action reserved for God alone. He forgives sin (Mark 2:1-12), another prerogative of God alone. He performs miracles, claims to be equal with Yahweh (John 5:17-18), and is ultimately crucified for the charge of blasphemy. Jesus claimed to be none other than God — in human flesh.
1. Old Testament passages refering to Yahweh applied to Jesus (O.T. passages and then where they are applied to Jesus in the N.T.):
a. Character of Yahweh
(Exod. 3:14 and Isa 43:11 alluded to in John 8:68; Ps. 101:27-28 LXX 1MT 102:28-291 quoted in Heb. 1:11-12; Isa 44:6 alluded to in Rev. 1:17)b. Holiness of Yahweh
(Isa 8:12-13 [cf. 29:23] quoted in 1 Pet.3:14-15)c. Descriptions of Yahweh
(Ezek. 43:2 and Dan. 10:6-6 alluded to in Rev. 1:13-16)d. Worship of Yahweh
(Isa 45:23 alluded to in Phil. 2:10-11; Deut. 32:43 LXX and Ps. 96:7 LXX [MT 97:7] quoted in Heb. 1:6)e. Work of Yahweh in creation
(Ps. 101:26 LXX [MT 102:27] quoted in Heb. 1:10)f. Salvation of Yahweh
(Joel 2:32 [MT 3:5] quoted in Rom. 10:13; cf. Acts 2:21; Isa 40:3 quoted in Matt. 3:3)g. Trustworthiness of Yawheh
(Isa 28:16 quoted in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pet. 2:6)h. Judgment of Yahweh
(Isa 6:10 alluded to in John 12:41; Isa 8:14 quoted in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8)i. Triumph of Yahweh
(Ps. 68:18 [MT v. 19] quoted in Eph. 4:8)Jesus identified as God:
- Isaiah 7:14, 9:16
- John 1:1,14; 20:28; 8:58
- Romans 9:5
- Col. 2:9
- Titus 2:13
- Hebrews 1:8
- 2 Peter 1:1
- arinya0
Who's Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus?
- Mimio0
The bible never says that the "holy spirit" was God or even part of God. The idea is just invention on top of fiction.
- scarabin0
i say let all these dumb fundies die
it's just evolution
- discipler0
arinya, pillars of the early church. Second and third generation Christians. Polycarp was a direct disciple of John the Apostle. You might think of them as the second wave of Apostles. Before Constantine infected things. We get the majority of early Christian history from these fellas.
- arinya0
I don't remember studying about them in the Bible. I study in spanish so that maybe why I don't recognize the names. Where are they in the Bible?
- discipler0
Mimio, that's just your opinion and it differs from what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit:
- Speaks
- Teaches
- Convicts
- Can be grieved
- Can be lied toTell me, if he is not one of the persons who are God... who or what is he?
- fusion410
I must admit, quotes from descendants of the apostles don’t really mean much too me. The 12 apostles themselves were imperfect men who on many occasions had to be corrected by Jesus for their wromg ideas. Its not a great leap to think that once Jesus was gone these views could creep back into the congregation.
In the end it doesnt matter what men say but what God says to us through the scriptures.