Nonbinary

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  • shellie16

    I just can't understand why people care either way. Who cares how someone else wants to classify themselves? I certainly don't. WTF does it even matter? It has nothing to do with any of us what someone else wants to be male, female or other. I feel the same way about people who against other people wanting to marry who they want. Who cares? I'm not gay, but it wasn't long ago that black people and white people couldn't marry. My own parents were raised in a time where it was still illegal in some states. Interracial marriage was still illegal in California when my dad was born. Random fucks need to back up out of people's personal lives imo.

    • +1 - I wholeheartedly agree.fadein11
    • < thiskona
    • I couldn't give a shit either. Just don't expect me to jump up and down in joy.
      Let people be; Non/Hyper-binaries and misanthropes alike.
      detritus
    • I can't say I'm 100% everyones lifestyle choices but it's still none of my damn business and there's no reason to be upset. Its a waste of energy.shellie
    • *100% behind.shellie
    • Samesame with polygamous (or even non-amorous!) marriage, I've always thought - why on Earth is it any of my business what people do behind closed doors?detritus
    • Personally im not interested in conservatives forcing Christian values on anyone -- as if they're all sinless angels.shellie
    • drugs should be legal as long as the risks are clear, youre not operating machinery, are pregnant or in the current care of a dependant.shellie
    • Drugs should certainly be decriminalised. I'm not sure how wise it would be to give capitalism free reign over meta/heroin or synth cannabis sales, for example.detritus
    • But sure - sell weed, shrooms, etc. plants and maybe even coke (as much as I hate the stuff). 'All' Drugs though? No.detritus
    • sure maybe not all drugs, but that synthetic weed for instance exists bc accrual weed is still illegal most placesshellie
    • Yup. Don't we know it here in Blighty!
      :(
      detritus
    • kids are dying because they'll find a way to get lifted one weary or another. i agree herion shouldn't be a commercial drug but mass incarseration is a problem.shellie
    • how much does the public at large need to be involved in someone else's SELF identity?imbecile
    • until it makes that person feel important.sted
    • Personally im not interested in gender fluid babies forcing their identity on anyone -- as if they're more important.imbecile
    • You realize that's a libertarian point if view right? Own it.Hayoth
    • @hayoth who me? I registered as a libertarian in high school but it's a wasted vote in practice imo.shellie
    • Ya, your stance "let people be who they want to be" is a libertarian stance. It's not wasted, it's a belief. Rand Paul and US Constitution are almost libertarinHayoth
    • well said, shelliehans_glib
    • classification leads to self segregation, bias and social issues. i say remove them all. #youarenotaspecialli...trooperbill
    • Not much of a personal life if you enter my life and demand particular treatment. Fuck off with your thoughts like the rest of society does.imbecile
  • chukkaphob4

    So if a nonbinary showflakes meets a vegan superiorbeing, who gets to to talk more about themselves?

  • Continuity6

    This whole 'non-binary' thing is something that really pushes my ability to tolerate things. Interracial marriage? Absolutely support it. Gay marriage? Yup. Transgender rights? Naturally.

    But, this non-binary thing? No. Sorry. It's a personal issue; which is to say: personal to the people who are going through it. I shouldn't have to adapt to someone's personal issues, particularly since these non-binary people are in a very, very small minority.

    The other thing I can't help but think is that they're 'non-binary' because they can't make up their fucking minds. Are they cis-whatever? Are they one gender trapped in another gender's body? Well, there's a solution to this: get off the fucking fence, and decide who you are, instead of forcing the rest of society to sit on the fucking fence with you, whilst you hum and haw on the subject.

    Ultimately, I actually don't care if someone sees themselves as 'non-binary'. It's their life, their sense of self, their issue to come to terms with. But I do absolutely object to their issue intruding on the functioning of society and the use of language, like forcing us to address them with non-sensical made-up personal pronouns, and other stupidity. It's not a social issue that defines our time. It's a personal issue to a very, very, very small group of people who can't seem to make up their fucking minds whether they want to go through life with a cock or a cunt.

    Get the fuck on with it, and either go through with gender re-assignment, or stay the gender you were born with. Stop fucking about.

    • Language games are always a power play to control dialogue and coerce.cannonball1978
    • Agreed. However, we're talking about an infinitessimally small group of people who would benefit more from psychotherapy than they would trying ...Continuity
    • ... to get the rest of society to try and comform to their personal issues. It's not society's fault they can't make up their fucking minds, and haven't got ...Continuity
    • ... the courage to solve their problem themselves or with help from a therapist.Continuity
    • So, no one should mess with how you use language, but you can mess with other's identity just to fit in your short-sighted view of the world? Grow up.sr_rosa
    • can you remember the day you made up your mind about what your gender was?lowimpakt
    • Following that logic, as I am not a woman and I haven't had any discrimination for being a woman, we can just disregard any complain about sexism.sr_rosa
    • Or race. Or disability.
      It's so cool to be me...
      sr_rosa
    • Yes, it was the same day i realised the world was filled with precious, self-obsessed, over-privileged morons who's grasp on reality was minimal.Morning_star
  • PonyBoy3

    shellie... you make an immensely valid point... I'm 100% w/you but I feel like you're leaving something out (not on purpose or anything... it's just this conversation has changed in the past couple of years).

    The attitude of "Who cares either way" is great. But the problem is there is a rise from the LGBTQXYZ123 crowd DEMANDING you care... to the point certain communities are actually passing 'resolutions' where we're told we must use the appropriate pronoun 'Person A' demands of us (no laws that I can think of as of yet but lawmakers are getting close: https://news.vice.com/story/jord…).

    Jordan Peterson comes to mind...

    • hehe... is he being interviewed by the Six Flags guy?PonyBoy
    • you cited a potential "law" that would grant the LGBT community equal rights, dudemonospaced
    • Not sure how that's problematic, but I also agree that the pronoun thing gets out of hand, and I'd rather not be bothered.monospaced
    • demanding you use a pronoun is not about equal rights ffsPonyBoy
    • People used to and still do call black people lots of things outside of the name we choose for ourselves. it pisses me all the way off.shellie
    • im not sayin you're an asshole we've had dealings offline BUT you are enjoying a certain level of privilege that impedes your ability to understand.shellie
    • lol... i cited a story about Peterson and bill C-16 which is part of the pronoun conversation... what the fuck are you going on about now, trollospaced?PonyBoy
    • shellie... how am I supposed to tell which pronoun to use if there are over 50 of them? If that makes me an asshole and privileged to ask such a Q... so be it.PonyBoy
    • the Vice article you cited wasn't about pronouns, it was for protection against discrimination based on their identitymonospaced
    • For instance just this year a cop repeadedly addressed my boyfriend as Boy, which we all know is passive aggressive racist bullshit.shellie
    • quite literally the first line said it was about equal rights, that's what I'm on about :)monospaced
    • i don't think anyone is expecting you to read minds but if someone says "call me he or they" calling him a she id's pretty fucked.shellie
    • the story is about C-16 and Peterson... what are you going on about, mono? pronouns are part of this conversation as the article showsPonyBoy
    • that pronoun thing, btw, will never be law, for exactly the reasons you don't like it... it's absolutely ridiculous and impossible to implement, it's unrealistimonospaced
    • I'm sorry, I didn't see the part of the article that said it was about pronouns, except to say that this guy also was fighting that fight. Sorry.monospaced
    • I thought it was about this only: "and recognizes violence or advocating genocide against gender expression and gender identity as a hate crime."monospaced
    • *sigh... so WE AGREE. lol Why do you put me through this shit, mono??PonyBoy
    • i don't think it should have to be law but a level of respect would be amazingshellie
    • A certain level of respect is fine as long as the person with the abnormal pronouns makes it easier to use them and knows the onus is on them to do socannonball1978
    • Also... Re: the rhetorical bludgeon of the checking of privilege. You aren't qualified to determine anyone's privilege other than your own.cannonball1978
    • Hey man! Shit, I screwed this up already.Ianbolton
    • big fat LOL at the racism that entered the conversation here...imbecile
  • severian2

    Me, me me me me me me me. We dont fucking care. Its gone to far.

    • this is well within the cringe stratosphereGnash
    • what even the fuckscarabin
    • this is so absurd. thanks!renderedred
    • this is so bad it needs upvotingPonyBoy
    • bill nye's whole new show is utter shit. this is case in point.sarahfailin
    • ^ ya, it's terrible. The old one wasn't that good either, actually.Gnash
    • too far? like in convenient for you kind of too far?pango
  • sted6

    Generation look at me I'm special.

    • Oh so special, a unique and free snowflake, so gentle... love and light to you.robotron3k
  • renderedred4

  • Continuity0

    Fucking hell, sr_rosa. I don't know if you've lost track of the issues because of all the lengthy, winding posts, or you're just simply out of your intellectual depth.

    The issue here isn't *changing* one's gender. No-one here is denying anyone the right to get hormone therapy and gender-reassignment surgery to help them self-actualise and live their lives as they feel they should.

    The issue here is 'non-binary'. It's the principle that someone is so fucking confused about their own gender identity, that they can't nail down who they want to be, and thus float around life thinking they're some tenth indeterminate sex. And this is very much a *personal* issue that they themselves have the sole responsibility to solve on their own, one way or another.

    I invite you to read one of the articles in the issue of National Geographic that zarkonite posted:

    http://www.nationalgeographic.co…

    In it, we explore the lives of a number of trans children who were born one way, identified another way, and ended up in a place where they were what they felt.

    In other words: they transitioned from one binary state (boy/girl) to another binary state (boy/girl).

    Why did that happen, you might ask? Because human beings simply can not function in a perpetual state of confusion. It's outright hardmful to us. We need to arrive at a fixed and ordered point in order to thrive. Consider: ask any gay or lesbian person what their lives were like when they felt they had to hide they were. Utter, life-sucking chaos, I'll bet.

    There are other children in this article which have had genetic problemsL namely, interesex traits. It should come as no surprise to anyone that will absolutely do a real job on someone's sense of who they are, but guess what? They are helped medically and therapeutically to arrive at a point where they can self-actualise and live out their lives as whatever gender they choose.

    The issue here are the ones who use such idiotic terms as 'gender expansive' and 'gender fluid', and insist on being addressed as 'they', 'ze' and other nonsense. These are the people who — despite being in a nearly imperceptible minority, for the legitimate cases (and I'm going to ignore inevitable bandwagon-ism on the part of others who see this as a convenient of not having to conform to the norms of civil society) — are expecting us to enable their refusal to take responsibility for their own physical and mental health. And using the term 'nonbinary' on an official document like a driving license is the height of entitlement and enablement.

    No-one is suggesting that they should not have the rights the rest of us have. But we are strongly suggesting they take personal responsibility, and sort their situations.

    • I know exactly what I'm talking about. YOU, thinking you can force others to adapt their identities to YOUR narrow understanding of the world just because YOU...sr_rosa
    • ...are too fucking lazy to address them in any way they want, which don't affect you in any way, or too simple minded to understand that genres other than binary...sr_rosa
    • ...are present in many cultures in different ways, sometimes as a third genre, sometimes as something else, then the rest of the world has to adapt to YOUR...sr_rosa
    • ...limitations. Genre and sexuality, both being an spectrum and not a binary position, is present in studies in the 40s, way beyond the LGBT liberation movement...sr_rosa
    • ...started, so it's not a response to minorities pressure, but based on observation. Not everyone is just 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual, and it can change...sr_rosa
    • ...over time, that's why it's considered fluid. Also happens with genre, although genre is not usually fluid so often because it's rooted in many different...sr_rosa
    • ...aspects and not just social construction — although some theories think it is — and usually what changes more often is genre expression.sr_rosa
    • That said, maybe you don't like using them, or ze, or whatever. But that the need exist for a new way to address people who doesn't identify themselves on...sr_rosa
    • ...one of the binary genres, and language will evolve, as it always does, even if YOU don't want or don't care.sr_rosa
    • What is genre? As in I'm a romantic comedy kinda guy? ;-)Ianbolton
    • "LANGUAGE WILL EVOLVE'. Making it a legal requirement to use certain pronouns is not evolution.Morning_star
    • If people start using them, it is.sr_rosa
    • People are forced and coerced to use them. That is by definition anti-evolution.Morning_star
    • The snowflake rosa is meltingimbecile
    • Language change as people use it. If people start using those words, whatever the reason, language will change. If they don't, it won't. It's not hard.sr_rosa
    • 'Whatever the reason...'. Sorry but no, the reason is absolutely everything.Morning_star
    • In terms of how a language changes over time, it's not. In terms of law enforcement being appropriate or effective, or ethically questionable, maybe.sr_rosa
    • Should a person be free to choose a different identifying pronoun on a monthly basis? And, have the weight of the law behind them when someone gets it wrong?Morning_star
    • The hypothetical case you draw is almost impossible. Gender identity may change, but it's not likely. Gender expression is more likely to be fluid.sr_rosa
    • Law should enforce you to use proper pronoun and to not use repeatedly a pronoun different of what is appropriate.sr_rosa
    • It's not that you have to guess and if you're wrong they are going to kill you and your family and burn your bodies to ashes.sr_rosa
    • You'll have to explain a little more about the 'fluid' nature of gender expression but not gender identity. Are they not the same?Morning_star
    • They are not. Gender identity is how you identify yourself, and gender expression is how you express your gender ‘socially’. For example, drag queens are often...sr_rosa
    • ...men that use expression for both genders or a mix of both, but that doesn't mean they are not clearly men. Of course may be different cases, but a man that...sr_rosa
    • ...dresses himself clearly as a man — or what socially may be expected of a man — in his everyday life, but as a woman when in drag/performing uses different...sr_rosa
    • ...expressions being a single person with a clear gender identity.sr_rosa
    • Which does the pronoun refer to, identity or expression? For instance in the case of a passport which would you use.Morning_star
    • you - a person.Morning_star
    • Good question. Passport and other documents used one form for men and two for women, one for unmarried ones and another for married ones. That's archaic and...sr_rosa
    • ...sexist, so it changed to use just one for men and one for women. If there is a need, it has to change again. A gender neutral form would be easier IMO.sr_rosa
    • Gender is a specific and legal requirement on Passports, Birth Certificates, Driving Licences etc. These are official documents that legally prove ones...Morning_star
    • ...identity for social housing, welfare, prison. Which prison do you send the male that identifies as Zim.Morning_star
    • Germany, Canada and Australia recognise ‘x/indeterminate’ as a gender, and ‘Mx’ is recognised as a title for non-binary in UK.sr_rosa
    • That not to mention India or Thailand with greatest tradition of third gender. Who created problems like the ones you propose are who stablished gender...sr_rosa
    • So the law being against you is bad, but the law forcing others to conform to your worldview is good? Did you notice black people did not ask to ban the N word?zarkonite
    • ...specific prisons. Is not responsibility of non-binary people to address those problems.sr_rosa
    • There's a lesson in there for you. It might actually help you also understand why Trump happened... this coercive attitude will get you nowhere.zarkonite
    • For example, if some country have separated prisons for heterosexuals and homosexuals, where should bisexuals be placed? Is them who created the problem?sr_rosa
    • Coercive needs force, so minorities can't by definition be coercive. But privileged majorities blaming the victims of oppression of their oppression is not new.sr_rosa
    • Trump happened because ignorant gullible people who fool themselves to believe what they want to believe despite of reality voted for him.sr_rosa
    • But as I'm not an US citizen and can't vote for or against him, you can blame yourself for that.sr_rosa
    • @zarkonite - Trump happened because neoliberalism is failing. Obama was a neolib, as was/is Hillary. Neoliberalism has v.little to do with the liberal left.fadein11
    • Yo can't have it both ways sr_rosa. Your stereotyping of majorities is heavy with prejudice.Morning_star
    • Well, as I have never lived nor voted in the US, my vision on the topic is necessarily one from distance. But a prejudice from one individual towards majority...sr_rosa
    • ...doesn't have any effect, and prejudice from majority to individuals or minorities is oppression, specially if backed by administration and authority.sr_rosa
    • And again, I give you arguments and answer questions and you just judge me.sr_rosa
    • And — and that is opinion, because I can judge too — that is the root of the problem, people able to treat others as inferior because they think intentions are...sr_rosa
    • ...the most important aspect, and as they are good in the inside, they can oppress others and be morons and assholes, because their intentions are good.sr_rosa
    • ‘I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
      Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood’
      sr_rosa
    • "Coercive needs force, so minorities can't by definition be coercive." i think you're wrong. It is entirely relative as to who is in the minority and who...Morning_star
    • ...is being coerced. If there's a group of 20 nonbinary people vs a lone Nazi by your definition the nonbinary folk are the oppressors. From my perspective...Morning_star
    • ...the numbers are irrelevant. Oppression is oppression, prejudice is prejudice whether you are the minority or the majority.Morning_star
    • We are talking society and coercive measures. Unless those 21 people are a society by their own for life, your example is not valid.sr_rosa
    • And I'm surprised you have choosen a Nazi to represent social majority. That speaks volumes about your perception.sr_rosa
    • White people accusing others of racism, men accusing women of sexism... Fun as an example of how people with privilege perceive reality, but nuts.sr_rosa
    • Nope. A society is any number of people living in a community. And I used Nazi as an extreme example so that you understood the polarity of my point...Morning_star
    • ...rather than causing confusion. It was in no way intended as a representation of a social majority. Although if this was Berlin in 1944 you may have a point.Morning_star
    • Again, those made up impossible examples are fun when talking about ideas. When people fight for their rights, not so much.sr_rosa
    • What if their rights directly conflict with someone else's freedom? Is there compromise?Morning_star
    • And who is majority or minority doesn't change the fact that a minority can't be coercive.sr_rosa
    • A minority can be coercive. Where are you getting these ideas from? I'm pretty certain the Conquistadores were the minority in New World.Morning_star
    • "Coercive needs force, so minorities can't by definition be coercive." LOL, most totalitarian regimes are minorities ruling over the majority =) Do you knowzarkonite
    • nothing of slavery or Europe's domination of the world?zarkonite
    • Sure, or in a post-apocalyptic Mad-Max type of world. Meanwhile, in real life, minorities can't be coercive in the sense zarkonite implied.sr_rosa
    • Why not? You keep saying that minorities can't be coerced as though it's a universal truth but you provide no rationalisation or evidence for the claim.Morning_star
    • Yes I did, you were not paying attention. Zarkonite wrote about coercive law inforcement. That is not coerce by brute force or intimidation, but systemic power...sr_rosa
    • ...and in a modern democracy a minority never have the power of the system to be coercive in that way. You just keep running around and speaking whatever comes...sr_rosa
    • ...to your mind without understanding the conversation or taking context into consideration, inventing whatever hypothetical impossible scenario fit your bias.sr_rosa
    • Now tell me how in a comunist totalitarian regime two hundred years in the future ruled by spongebob would be different.sr_rosa
    • By the way, you still haven't in this or other conversations provided ANY evidence or rationalisation to anything you said.sr_rosa
    • Just judged my intentions, my comprehension, invented surreal scenarios, and whining.sr_rosa
    • Hey, look up gerrymandering. I'm positive that Trump won with fewer votes, is he not representing a minority? Or Erdogan? Or Putin? Macron in france wonzarkonite
    • with one of the lowest votre turn out. As for minorities taking over, study Rwanda or Irak.zarkonite
    • and what evidence have you presented for any of your points? I actually showed you a nice natgeo article based on science that dismantles most of what you say.zarkonite
    • @sr_rosa. Ok i think i get where you're coming from now with this coercion thing. Correct me if i'm wrong. Because the system of power is democratic there...Morning_star
    • ...must be a majority. Because the majority hold the power the minority by definition are powerless. If the majority rule that the minority (for whatever...Morning_star
    • ...reason) are not free to do the 'thing' that they want, they are oppressed. If the minority are made to adapt their behaviour they are coerced. Does that...Morning_star
    • ...accurately reflect your position?Morning_star
    • Not at all. Minorities are oppressed when their rights are not respected — ie., as most people is ok with binary gender, suck it up and choose one or another.sr_rosa
    • Everyone is coerced to change their behaviour when it's against the law. That is not my position but how the world works.sr_rosa
    • I know the article, which point of it proves me wrong? It talks about transgender and intersexuals, as I did, all the elements that construct gender identity...sr_rosa
    • ...some biological/physical but not all, and it's never a binary black or white matter, as I wrote.sr_rosa
  • Morning_star0

    Something greater?

    How is it a 'greater' society when law dictates our speech, the very words we have to use?

    How is it a 'greater' society when 'respect' is enforced rather than earnt?

    How is it a 'greater' society when those who shout, cry, wail and whine the loudest are the only ones that are heard?

    How is it a 'greater' society when the current nonbinary movement directly undermines the legal argument of 'born this way', a fundamental principle of the LBGT rights movement?

    “Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.” Abraham Lincoln.

    • "dictates our speech" you mean like the N word?pango
    • "cry, wail and whine the loudest are the only ones that are heard?"
      isn't that just how everything works? if no body complains then everything is fine.
      pango
    • 'born this way'
      i got nothing for that...
      pango
    • It's entirely the opposite to the 'n' word. The law dictates the pronouns we have to use.Morning_star
    • ".... freedom... "
      who's freedom got denied?
      pango
    • Poor thing, persecuted minorities are forcing you to anything? You are the only ones being cry babies, LGBT people just fight for their right...sr_rosa
    • ... to not be treated as less than you. You don't like it? Yo fuck yourself with a stick. It's basic human rights. If you don't like it, go find another planet...sr_rosa
    • ...to live in. Ignorance is not a right. Hate is not a right. Discrimination is not a right. Being a fucking snowflake is not a right.sr_rosa
    • Also ‘born this way’ doesn't respond to any scientific evidence. Sexuality is not black or white, is a spectrum, and can be fluid.sr_rosa
    • The ‘born this way’ crap is used by non-LGTB people to be condescendent. ‘Poor people who were born with an imperfection and can't do anything about it’.sr_rosa
    • sr_rosa, are you kidding? Are you suggesting people are not free to be an ignorant, hate-filled, bigots?Morning_star
    • You can as you have the ability. But it's not a right. You don't have the right to be an asshole. But LGTB people have the right to not be discriminated.sr_rosa
    • Or, to be more precise, you don't have the legal right. If you and your three friends on Facebook agree on something you can believe you have a moral right.sr_rosa
    • And that's cool as long as you don't interact socially with anyone outside that circle.sr_rosa
    • I don't think you understand what discrimination means.Morning_star
    • I don't think you do, either. See it from a non-binary point of view. If you were, let's say, under arrest and the officers addressed you as her all the time...sr_rosa
    • ... if you are him, or the opposite, wouldn't you think it's a lack of respect? Being addressed as her while you tell them to respect you and address you as him?sr_rosa
    • You surely would file a complaint, and it's understandable. What makes you think non-binary people are less than you and don't deserve that same respect?sr_rosa
    • That's discrimination based on their genre.sr_rosa
    • And you may not agree or not understand it, and that's fine. Just keep it to yourself instead of hurting other people's rights just because your opinions.sr_rosa
    • What about the lack of respect this nonbinary person has for the law? Or the teaching faculty they're protesting? You have absolutely no understanding of...Morning_star
    • ..my particular circumstances yet you assume so much. Where is your respect?Morning_star
    • They don't have respect for the status quo, because everything needs some fight to change. People has human rights, institutions or abstract constructions don'tsr_rosa
    • I must respect every religious person, ie, because they are people. I don't have to respect their religion, because religion has no rights, people do.sr_rosa
    • I was just illustrating with an example and didn't make any assumption on you. You're just changing the topic, being a snowflake again, puting yourself...sr_rosa
    • ...in the center of everything. Breaking news: not everything is about you, your opinions, and your personal circumstances.sr_rosa
    • That's why you can't deny other people's rights and make it about your rights. It's not a right to mess with others' rights because of your opinions.sr_rosa
    • 'I must respect every religious person, ie, because they are people.' <- this is the most absurd statement I've read outside the Politics and Religion threads.Continuity
    • Are you out of your mind? No-one is under any obligation to dispense un-earned respect to anyone else. Fuck me.Continuity
    • And this nugget: 'Breaking news: not everything is about you, your opinions, and your personal circumstances.' Be careful with this one, cos it goes both ways.Continuity
    • And this includes people who would benefit from a nice long course of psychotherapy to help them sort their personal gender issues.Continuity
    • You be careful, because maybe you are more in need of psychotherapy than anyone you are diagnosing.sr_rosa
    • Non-binary is not people who are confused, or needs to make their mind just to fit whatever simple mental construction of reality you have in your mind.sr_rosa
    • And with respect, of course, I'm talking about legal right to not be discriminated, not about being nice or polite, although it never hurts.sr_rosa
    • Discrimination is a fundamental part of the human condition. For one thing it keeps us safe. Secondly, respect is not a right as you've shown in your...Morning_star
    • ..recent replies.Morning_star
    • Discrimination has two meanings, making differentiation, and acting with the power to make distinction. Human rights forbid you to the latter, not the first.sr_rosa
    • Human brain works mostly making judgments. That doesn't mean you don't have to be rational beyond those automatic judgments.sr_rosa
    • I don't have to respect your opinions, your position, your ideas, or your sense of self-entitlement. That doesn't mean I have the right to say to don't deserve...sr_rosa
    • ...the same dignity as any other human, because it's your right. Pointing out the flaws in your logic, or the absence of it in what you write is not trying to...sr_rosa
    • ...take away any of your rights. Characterising your efforts to enter discussion about your butt hurt as a snowflake is not hurting your rights.sr_rosa
    • *To center, not enter.sr_rosa
    • Your last four posts are equally true for you as they are for me. However, could you explain where 'my sense of self entitlement' has reared it's head, also...Morning_star
    • ...i'm unsure of the logical flaws in my argument. Perhaps you could be a little more condescending by way of explanation.Morning_star
    • I surely could, I don't think I will. You started making an argument from the point of view of how could it affect your freedom. And then appealing to your...sr_rosa
    • ...particular case and personal circumstances, that no one in the discussion have assumed, criticised or argued about.sr_rosa
    • Ellaborating on the part on how human brain works, you seem — that is an appreciation and could be wrong, here I'm assuming — to be looking for confirmation...sr_rosa
    • ...of your behaviour — confirmation bias working here — instead of trying to understand before having a position.sr_rosa
    • "You started making an argument from the point of view of how could it affect your freedom" No i didn't. Read the post. You assume far too much.Morning_star
    • So, talking about ‘our speech’ and ‘words we use’, in opposition to ‘those who shout, cry, wail and whine’, and ending with a quote about freedom, doesn't mean...sr_rosa
    • ...you are making a distinction between ‘you’ and ‘them’ regarding freedom? Then maybe you should read the post.sr_rosa
    • If i wanted to make a distinction i would have used 'I' and 'me' not 'we' and 'us'. It's you that have projected your prejudices, discrimination and ...Morning_star
    • ...assumptions on to the post. For what it's worth, my intention was to point out that there are wider societal problems and fall out that stem from this...Morning_star
    • ...particular issue.Morning_star
    • I haven't projected anything, I just read what you wrote. And you oposed two sides, on the non-binary vs LGBT as well. You want to clarify yourself? Add more...sr_rosa
    • ...context? Be my guess. But stop acusing me of not understanding, of projecting, of assuming, and start talking about my arguments instead of trying to...sr_rosa
    • ...invalidate my opinion by invalidating me, in a classic ad hominem fallacy.sr_rosa
    • 'Sides' what? I'm not on a side. I don't have an agenda. My post highlighted potential issues for society as a whole. As you keep pointing out, it's never ...Morning_star
    • ..black and white. There are always shades of grey. Ad hominem? I'm question what you have written NOT you. I don't know you ...Morning_star
    • The only snowflake here is rosaimbecile
    • ... You seem to be under the misguided impression that i give a fuck about the way you identify. I don't.Morning_star
    • See? Again you try to make it about you or about me. Let's make it about the arguments.sr_rosa
    • I wish you would.Morning_star
    • Ok, back to square one, point by point of your original post. 1. As in the example I gave you before, I think law show force people in the administration or...sr_rosa
    • ...representing authority to be respectful with everyone, no matter if it's binary or not. 2. Respect, as a legal right to not be discriminated, should be...sr_rosa
    • ...inforced by law. Respect as in politeness and dignity should be required in any figure of authority or administration. It is part of human rights, but it's...sr_rosa
    • ...impossible to dictate behaviour in everyday life between individuals by law. 3. Activism is always like that, specially when coming from a minority. If you...sr_rosa
    • ...don't fight for your rights, won't be given to you out of generosity. Ie, homosexuality was removed as a mental disorder only because LGBT people fought...sr_rosa
    • ...for it. It's important to know that including it as a mental disorder in the first place was arbitrary judgment and not because scientific reasons.sr_rosa
    • 4. Non-binary are part of LGBT. Trans* include not only transexuals and transgender, also other groups. So non-binary can't hurt LGBT rights, because these are...sr_rosa
    • ...also theirs. ‘Born this way’ or LGBT people being not-guilty by inevitability of their condition is a fucking stupid and condescending notion.sr_rosa
    • And as a final note, your quote on freedom is about shared rights — hurting your rights hurt mine, because we all share rights. Non-binary defending their...sr_rosa
    • ...right doesn't hurt anyone's rights, unless you understand rights as a collision — one's rights ends where others' rights start — instead of a share.sr_rosa
    • I already wrote most of this, but those are my arguments.sr_rosa
    • wow, so many triggered white hetro males on an issue that will have pretty much zero impact on your lives. move on lolfadein11
  • bklyndroobeki2

    I see a lot of "why should we care" ...

    We should care.

    When we care, we can move the needle toward moving society towards something greater (for each other as human beings, always); so that states like NC could put laws in place to protect their citizens instead of isolating them, with support from their reps.

    I know I'll regret making this parallel; however I can't imagine the civil rights movement having much impact to date, if folks said "why should we care"

    • Most non-binary people that I know are Native American (two-spirit). Admittedly while I don't quite understand it --bklyndroobeki
    • it gives me more insight as to how much of a vast spectrum people can fall in both gender and sexuality, we're such complex human beings it can't be blk/whitebklyndroobeki
    • I did say I don't care. But with a follow up. "Just let people be"pango
    • what is the "greater" the needle is moving too? sounds like client saying I want it to "pop" or "wow" or every other cliche of a person with no idea of goaldeathboy
    • im guessin by "greater" you mean when no one cares to classify or when none cares about a persons classificationdeathboy
    • if one were to care about classification than you have a value structure. You get people valuing there class over others. When they dont care there is no valuedeathboy
    • People shrug and say whatever. The fact is people who are driving to define value are trying to elevate their value. Like a sob sister telling everyone theydeathboy
    • wash lepers. Ppl are like ok whatever that is your hobby, but they try to play the morally superior card. This new gender identity card is of the same veindeathboy
    • For fun. All the people open to exceptance of all "gender" why are we talking of multiple bathrooms and not just "a" bathroom. that alone tells the storydeathboy
    • a future of a single bathroom is kind of a "greater" to me. The fact we still worry about gender specific bathrooms shows our true level. We are going backwardsdeathboy
    • If everyone was neutral we'd be truly tolerant, what you're suggesting is using coercion and calling it inclusive.zarkonite
  • shellie2

    im a little sensitive today bc a guy i know was beaten to a bloody plup and rushed to the hospital with 6 arrested last night. a bunch of skinheads went to a hipster bar in oklahoma talking all kinds of ignorant shit. my friend approached them trying to calm the hate speech directed at another friend's Asian girlfriend and he paid the price. my experience with people who care so much about fighting against other peoples personal preferences and making superficial snap judgements is more than annoying those -- people can be very dangerous.

    • years ago,six skinheads beat the shit out of me for wearing a Duran Duran t-shirt at a Black Flag concert.

      Skinheads don't discriminate. they hate everyone.
      Gnash
    • !!!detritus
    • To be fair on this, horrific as it is, those guys just want trouble. What ever excuse they just want a fight. Making things almost makes them more prone to hatemugwart
    • oh that group came to drink and fight for sure. ive seen more bar fights in oklahoma over any other state in the US. what's with that?shellie
  • hans_glib5

    so i think the general reaction can be summed up as

  • pango5

    I can't find my self to give a shit (ok maybe maybe jus a tiny bit. Like a nugget).
    Just let people be.

  • Gnash0

    • I fully get encouraging ones kids but isn't this bordering on sexplotation?mugwart
    • But drag isn't nonbinary, it's an act. "Lactatia" is a boy.i_monk
    • ^ ya, i hesitated posting this because of that. but her opening lines in the vid were totally relevantGnash
    • er, his opening lines...Gnash
    • If your premise is that "it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks" you can't just follow that with "but you have to use the pronoun I choose or else"...zarkonite
    • The unspoken coda of "it doesn't matter what anyone thinks" is "as long as they agree".i_monk
  • cannonball19782

    "I think what we have here is a working definition of an asshole -- a person who demands that all social interaction happen on their terms"

    https://www.theatlantic.com/nati…

  • _niko3

    All part of Putin's master plan, effeminize and confuse the enemy and move in for the kill.

    His propaganda machine has America in a tailspin, racial issues and politics are a mess and everyone's becoming a useless snowflake.

    The implosion is inescapable.

    • nobody likes putin, nobody likes erdogan, nobody likes the house of saud, nobody likes kim, but fuck me if they won't be the last ones standing when the dust_niko
    • ...settles_niko
  • lowimpakt0

    The issue gender definition becomes important to people when how they define themselves is in conflict with or not recognised by wider society.

    if your gender was never in question of course you wouldn't care.

    Also, PonyPony mentioned "LGBTQXYZ123" and how they are "DEMANDING" to be understood.

    Non-binary is about gender has nothing to do with sexuality so trans (T) is probably most relevant from this list.

    but the same point applies. What is wrong with people publicly defining their sexuality?

    One obvious reason why it is useful to know is it allows people to find other people like themselves so maybe they can have friendships, relationships, fall in love or have sex.

    • There is nothing wrong with it as long as you agree that there is nothign wrong with people not participating in their definition.cannonball1978
    • that's a very good question I don't have an answer for but why would you actively choose to define someone by a different gender to their own?lowimpakt
    • i suppose the conflict is that gender is cultural as well as biological and the non-binary person is claiming autonomy over their agenda. people get offendedlowimpakt
    • because it's not the social norm they feel responsible for?lowimpakt
    • I would define them to what they are to me subjectively, irregardless of what they define themselves as sunjectively.cannonball1978
    • As in... they can call themselves whatever they want. And I can call them whatever I want to call them. And I dont give a shit about their feelings.cannonball1978
    • Also... gender labels are not cultural.cannonball1978
    • Also... me not giving a shit about "feelings" steming from misalignment between my terms and their terms does not make me bad, phobic or immoral.cannonball1978
    • Punches for: 'irregardless'Continuity
    • didn't say they were demanding to be 'understood'... but demanding specific pronouns that would be difficult for many to remember...PonyBoy
    • Fair enoughcannonball1978
    • ...or many to care to remember for that matter. Their desire to have friends / sex will be fulfilled whether or not I get the pronoun right.PonyBoy
    • cannonball1978 - gender is culturally defined. gender is not the same as a person's sex or sexuality.lowimpakt
    • Sorry no. I agree it's not the same as sex, but no... it is not culturally defined.cannonball1978
    • It's the dictionary definition of gender "Either of the two sexes, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences"lowimpakt
    • https://en.oxforddic…lowimpakt
    • Ah... maybe semantically it is defined (in terms). But culture does little if anythgin to define the gender you are going to identify with.cannonball1978
    • Let's agree to disagree :) I think culture, society & social norms absolutely define gender(s) & gender roles. These change over time & location so are fluidlowimpakt
  • cannonball19780

    Fucking hell. All this garbage rationale just so a public servant will address you as xe because of some bullshit emotional hurt you are pretending to have.

    It's not your "right" to be addressed in any way you want.

    The level of argumentative anti-air flack being put out by these groups just to maintain some level of control over the conversation—and by extension, power—is astounding.

    • you go girl!monospaced
    • * 3 snapscannonball1978
    • A cis man whining about how the smallest minority are abusing their power on him. Strange times we live in.sr_rosa
    • Rosa you dont know who I am, so you sound ignorant when you say things like that and use rhetorical bludgeons to no effect.cannonball1978
    • Sr. Rosa for you.sr_rosa
  • imbecile0

    check your privilege at the door. then head over to the doctor for a quick chromosome check.

    nonbinary, such rubbish.

    i don't care how you self identify. it's SELF! keep it to yourself

    • it's not rubbish entirely ... biologically, there are some interesting things that happen in the gender spectrummonospaced
    • also ... if you really didn't care, wouldn't you keep your rather strong opinion to YOUR self instead of making such absurd statements?monospaced
    • ^ well said...see_thru
    • "I don't care how you self identify. it's self, keep it to yourself." So, Ben Wexler, leave me alone, we don't agree. I'm not wrong as you believe.imbecile
    • now you just sound insane and childish on top of naive and ignorant. And congrats on that stunt, do you feel better now?monospaced
    • you're kind of a cunt.imbecile
    • no wait, i take that back.
      you're a cunt ben wexler.
      imbecile
    • or should i say...
      ben wexler, you're a cunt.
      imbecile
  • Ianbolton1

    Surely it's obvious why this is happening? Within an age of everything mattering for only minutes or seconds, we need to find relevance or meaning in the things we do in our life. Add weight to our feelings. We're getting to a point where even your sexuality is boring now. And really, why should your sexuality matter to anyone but yourself anyway? We're in an age of privilege, having the time and space to question exactly how we feel, but sadly it allows us to make up new boundaries for things that are possibly not that important. If somebody feels the need to specify their gender, then whatever, but considering how many people take photos of themselves on social media as we enter an even deeper age of narcissism, is all this existential questioning really that relevant? Or is it more of a mental health issue which could lead us into something much darker as we segregate ourselves from each other to find our 'true' identities?

    Just a thought anyway!

    • I agree with the general idea that we all are more self-aware, and self-centered. But beyond that, I wonder if someone changing his/her/their own name, ie...sr_rosa
    • Some would suggest it's civilisation-ending decadence, similar to what the Roman Empire was experiencing in its final couple of centuries.Continuity
    • ...would face reactions about being confused, needing therapy, or trying to impose his/her/their opinion on the rest of us like we've seen in this thread.sr_rosa
    • Being the same fucking point: change the way the rest of us address him/her/them.sr_rosa