Start-ups / Mom & Pop

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  • PonyBoy

    I'm sure most business owners / freelancers here deal with the pain-in-the-ass known as 'Start-ups' or 'Mom & Pop' shops...

    I've been on a tiny tiny tiny itty-bitty little 'retainer' (I really shouldn't even call it that) with a local business that seems to need a lot of creative work to keep them afloat.

    They have 'good taste' - I'll give them that... but their taste is also pricey. On top of that of course they want the latest tech for their websites and must have an App for smartphones etc...

    ... but they don't have a dime to pay for most (any) of what they want.

    Not long ago I made it clear to them that i'm not being paid enough and I can't take care of their every need— they're going to have to find other solutions outside of me (I also was clear that I wanted to separate myself from this one specific website they want to build).

    So - they just went to an actual 'Agency' and that Agency came back with a $150k price tag...

    :)

    ... reality is still settling in w/these guys... they're literally in shock.

    It's a battle almost everyday w/small company clients like this. I NEVER put up with the constant changes / back-and-forth bullshit with an Agency that I do w/Start-ups... not ever... plus I get paid well / correctly / in a timely manner (I Love my Agency clients!!!)

    Understandably, Start-ups by their nature are broke... in this country they're just trying to live the 'American Dream'. I get it - you don't have much and you need a lot... and I try like hell to accommodate but haven't EVER been able to make any of these little Mom & Pops happy in the end... they just keep wanting more... and they can be outright ASSHOLES in the process.

    I'm constantly being requested to do 'free' stuff that could help make me 'big'... (lol)... I've heard that same damn story just about 20 years now.

    So how does the QBN community deal w/their local Mom & Pop Shops? Has anyone had any success in keeping them as clients - or do you find yourself having a falling out? (19/20 times over money)

    This GIF is still very timely:

  • Pupsipu0

    You're a designer mang! Design a cheap solution that solves their problem!

    Often there is some cheap template alternative you can throw at it. And get a bunch of these cheap clients and sell them all the same template.

    There used to be an age where every mom and pop shop got a very decent customized template sign.

    This is how it's done.

    • newspaper headline "NAZI ARMY NOW 75 MILES FROM PARIS"prophetone
  • dbloc0

    still love that animated gif

  • ideaist0

    Word of mouth is very powerful if you aren't in a city centre.

    I live in rural Ontario, Canada and any success, locally and/or abroad I can directly attribute to word of mouth.

    Does "spec" work pay the bills?

    Short term... No.

    Long term?

    Maybe!

    ...but, Maybe not.

    The key is to determine your own personal wants and needs.

    IF your needs is a list filled with material things, then work as an advertiser for McDonalds, Starbucks, Etc. the rest of your life and be content.

    IF your needs is a list filled with such things as "personal fulfilment", "humility", etc. than take a few "spec" projects on; personally I've had some equate to nothing and others result in a solid pay cheque.

    Patience is key.

    : )

    • I have sympathy for underdogs trying to break away from the "bottom". Either you do as well, or not...ideaist
  • omg0

    This is a subject not really worth investigating in my opinion because the solution for mom and pop shops for cheaper websites already exist. Simply tell them to go to Facebook or Tumblr and have them open up their own website there. There are a couple dozen other places for them to go to. Case solved. I'm afraid you would be 8 years behind the times if you are still trying to seek out how to solve these issues of mom and pop shops not having enough money to fund the creation of their website. This would also explain why recently many designers have been having more falling out with their clients because they can simply do it on their own.

  • PonyBoy0

    I hear what you're saying, omg... but do you really think a mom and pop can produce a site w/an estimated value of $150k themselves using a Tumblr setup? (or the like)

    For what they're looking for... there's nothing available 'out of the box' to build it around w/out bringing in someone who knows what they're doing (this is more than just a simple WP reskin/adjustment)

  • albums0

    squarespace

  • BonSeff0

    you are doing it right, shrug your shoulders with the 'this is the best as i can do" quote and send them off to get shocked.

    sure, let them have at squarespace, even drop their favorite podcasters code for a discount.. and even then, expect a fo-free can you help phone call.

    at some point you just need to look em in the eye and be like,
    @0:15

  • _niko0

    Yeah, i've gotten to the point where i just point them to WP and let them do it themeselves.

  • identity0

    I would love a sport's car - but realistically, I can only afford a lease on a mid-range SUV. Some sites cost 150k. If they won't listen to reason (what do they do that would REQUIRE a 150k site?!) on an alternative - it's not your responsibility to make the impossible happen.

    You spoke up. They got a reality check.
    They'll likely temper their 'ambitions' and respect your opinion more.

  • omg0

    @PonyBoy... First I'd like to know how you interpret, estimate or calculate a value of a website or webpage. How much do you think say for example, Apple's Facebook page is worth? Do I think it's possible to build a Tumblr site to a value that is very much worth a price of $150k? It's possible. Question is how fast do you need and want to get there.

    But it does sounds like you're in a whole different area of development whose needs go beyond the 'out of box' solution. People have been known to become shareholders of the company, where a certain percentage belongs to a designer or programmer for their time in building a website that the company couldn't ordinarily afford out of pocket.

    • Definitely going beyond billable hours. I think you're on to something at the end there. I'd they have real value, they can give you a piecemonospaced
    • If theymonospaced
  • whatthefunk0

    I don't mean to be a dick but I'm just so tired of this debate about the potential benefits of working for free and what's the best way to accommodate a cheap ass client. These clients have to pay their rent, utilities, they go out to lunch, buy new macbooks, and expense dinners with clients.

    This industry and younger designers need to stop wasting time with broke ass clients. I've never heard of this relationship working out b/c anyone who works for free has already established him/herself as "that person" who will work for nothing so why would they respect you enough to eventually provide a big pay-day.

    Thing of all the time wasted with phone calls, countless emails, and dumb questions.

  • d_rek0

    As someone who moonlights as a freelancer I never understood why people undervalue themselves when working in a freelance capacity.

    The value you provide a small business is incredible. If your client can't appreciate that then you should think about discontinuing your relationship with them.

    I've also found that being firm with pricing is always the best practice. I was asked to quote an identity project a couple months ago. I came in at around $3k for the whole deal - x amount of hours @ $65/hr.

    The prospect emailed me back: "We have $500 to for this project."

    That ended our conversation right there. There was no negotiating. No backpedaling. Nothing. I simply explained that $500 was inadequate compensation for the project and should they have the budget in the future to engage with me then i'd be more than happy to work with them.

  • rson0

    I do not do them. I only do non profits to make myself feel better.

  • yurimon0

    See how much involved they are in nit picky type of way. The smart one hire people for their expertise if they like your work and give you breathing space, trust your opinions etc..

    The control, freaky ones micromanage to point of killing your work, or worst, time.

    I would judge to see first and budgets etc.
    Like all business, its Just a personality thing.