Am I out of line?

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  • PonyBoy

    I just got through a heated discussion w/an Agency who designs and contracts out most of the development / animation for interactive projects (websites to mobile etc)...

    I bid the projects I'm working on based on PSD's and an existing website's content (like a moron I did this... I know)... because there was no new architecture (wireframes) defining the project... ... just pretty PSDs breaking down new design but not the formalities of the project.

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    Am I out of line to expect wireframes / content to be fully documented (outside of PSDs or existing online content) for large projects if I'm working for an Agency that specializes in interactive projects?
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    I feel like I'm wrong to expect this now... ... because I was told something along the lines of "In my 15 years of building projects like this I've never once been asked by a developer for content typed up in a document..."

    Yes... that's what the dude said... ... ):

    Do you hire a contractor to build a house w/out a blueprint? Does Ikea give you a table that's been thought-out / designed w/out documentation outlining a means to an end?

  • tOki0

    Well if the designs have everything new in them , do you need the ia too?

    If said agency is doing the content then yes I think it's reasonable to ask for whatever they have upfront. But if their client is doing the content themselves, don't hold your breath. We've had sites here sit for 3 or 4 months waiting to go live because of people dragging their feet..

    • my longest hold up for client not getting content was a 9 mo.MrNibs
  • PonyBoy-2

    All content exists accept for the content they failed to design / take account of... ... they're waiting on nothing from the client.

    Let me ask you this... ... if the designs have everything 'new' in them... is it really my job to pull content line by line from a PSD (that's 300 dpi by the way)... ... and to do this for 20+ pages?

    These aren't quick paragraphs - these are short descriptions that were simply copy / pasted text boxes in photoshop... adding up to literally hundreds of text boxes to select and copy/paste from.

    Does it make sense to ask a developer to open over 600meg worth of PSD's just to extract the final content?

    That's just ridiculous... and poor management at that. If there are content changes... why not make them up-front in a nice piece of IA and keep updating that one IA doc instead of going back into the PSD's over and over again?... ... put everything you can into that IA too... from project contacts to server passwords etc...

    ***forwarding an email does not equate to efficient Project Management***

    Time Management doesn't seem to cross the minds of those expecting folks like me (developers) to A.) work quickly... and B.) give them an accurate time estimate...

    ... it all adds up - especially when you leave it to one person (the developer) to keep all your content together... ... especially if you're an 'interactive agency' and not the end client...

    ...or... am I out of line?

  • harlequino0

    You are WAY THE FUCK OUT OF LINE.

    Actually, I have no idea.

    Can't you just charge a "pain in the ass" fee for scooping all the damn content out of PSDs based on how many hours?

  • zarkonite0

    seems like it's going to take you a lot of time to get the text out of the PSD and into the CMS (or whatever) ...

    I would tell them the price quoted was for doing the job with copy documents, pulling text out of PSDs will double the amount of time required so here is the new price. you pick!

    • besides, the content didn't originate from the PSDs, they MUST have it in a word doc somewhere...zarkonite
  • tOki0

    By new, I meant functionality - buttons, elements and so on.

    Well it's only ridiculous to ask you to do content entry if that's not part of the scope. It's definitely a waste of time but if it wasn't specified, they could well expect you to do it as part of the "build" in which case you are going to have to argue otherwise.

    Generally copy/content & PSD's are kept separate here - because 99% of the time we don't have that content before design is done. Content entry is also listed as a line item, and is managed after build when CMS integration is done. It really depends on the kind of site being built, and how you are building it.

    ie. a flash website you really need the content before hand (to design it peroply) unless it's supposed to be a content heavy site in which case it's always indicative. In the same way with html you wouldn't drop the content of an entire blog into a PSD, it sounds like they are being a bit unreasonable to expect you to trawl PSDs...?

  • PonyBoy-1

    the PSD's are just an example...

    ... there are issues all over the place here... ... from the server not having PHP to being told we needed to use the existing store but finding out they completely redesigned the way it worked... ... making the existing store useless (8 year old ASP I might add)...

    ... etc etc...

    This has been one big mess. :(

    And then hidden inside the new 'blog' layout is a number of links in the blog to items such as 'events page', 'photo gallery'... etc... ... none of which have been designed nor is the content defined.

    Okay - I get you want a photo gallery... ... please define it - page by page from when I enter the gallery... ... tell me how you expect it to work? Is a social gallery?... can folks comment?... do we introduce the galleries on a thumb page?... what does it look like??????

    If you outline your new website and account for everything in a nice piece of IA... those questions will stand out like sore thumbs and get answered up-front... ... not when I discover them in the PSD...

  • PonyBoy-2

    Anyway... lesson learned on my end I guess...

    ... I have to define what parameters come from me and what I expect from them up-front (and vice versa of course)... ... and most importantly not bid on or say 'yes' to a project w/ so many hazy variables

  • metal_leg_will1

    Your workflow/best practices seem superior to the clients methods. You'll have to negotiate some sort of Management fee for time spent organizing and educating them on how to run this type of project.

    Definitely not out of line.

  • PonyBoy-2

    haha!... there were three of us on the phone call today... myself and one of the guys got heated while the third person managed to calm us both down...

    I just got off the phone with guy number 3...

    ... I asked him: "how old is so-and-so - the guy who stated that '...In his 15 years of blah blah' ... I thought he was like... ... 27?"

    The response was nothing but laughter from the other end of the phone... cuz he knew where I was going... ...

    ... I guess the guy's been managing web projects since he was 12...

    ... which is amazing cuz my mother was still having problems getting me to shower daily let alone project manage national accounts.

  • Ancillary0

    sounds like a standard day in the office

  • cannonball19780

    not out of line. id expect ia as well if it's a site.

  • nadnerb0

    When I was a freelance developer I learned my lesson about bidding on projects that aren't wireframed and/or well defined. You can and will get fucked. It's tricky as a developer because your process is not necessarily always understood or accounted for.

  • 23kon2

    give the agency the flattened jpeg visuals and tell them it'd be cheaper for them to get a secretary to copy the text and type it into word or whatever than it would be for you to rip apart the psds and copy out all the information.

    i bet i know the option theyd choose ;)