joshua davis bashing by CR
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- Horp0
Khurram, you seem really keen to push this new self perception as professional cage fighter. May I ask exactly how many professional cage fights you've engaged in, and how you have faired so far. If no professional bouts yet, then maybe some amateur ones?
- do i sense some tension between us? Cos that would make me sad :(Khurram
- No not at all, but this is a JD vs CR thread and you've mentioned Cage fighting loads in it so I'm curious...Horp
- Khurram, nobody likes youceiling_cat
- to know if you've made headway. You just seem really eager to talk about it. I thought I would ask.Horp
- That's not true ceiling cat.Horp
- Ha. Ok. Yeah, i've had several Muay Thai inter-club fights. I'm training in submission wrestling nowKhurram
- taking it to the next step yo!Khurram
- (maybe the tension you sense is because I've asked an inconvenient question) = DHorp
- though i was being facetious with the references, as is my wont.Khurram
- Good to hear. So do you plan on making it a career thing or a life-thing (I don't want to say 'hobby')Horp
- nah, just your other comments in this thread. I'm sensitive cos your my favourite *hugz!*Khurram
- fucking LOLMau
- "facetious with the references"... yes, exactly why I was being facetious with my question.
= )Horp - < A smiley face dropped off the bottom of that note I'll have you know.Horp
- supergaybrandelec
- A life thing i guess. I had a quarter life crisis lol, i could get all pretentious into why i do itKhurram
- i did it for a few weeks, just for fun, and it got into my blood, and now i'm obsessed, basicallyKhurram
- though this is waaay off topicKhurram
- Its okay, its notes, who cares. Film a fight and post it up POST IT UP MAN!Horp
- More like a Bum Fighter.Jnr_Madison
- Ha, ok, i filmed a training compilation with a mate, i'll put up when i get a chance!Khurram
- I'm sorry i hurt your feelings when i said you were a rubbish internet dweeb, Jnr_Madison.Khurram
- LOLHorp
- haha, yeah that's it.Jnr_Madison
- francoisfido0
define 'art' you fucks.
- i did this a while ago, it was very good, i'll try and remember it.Khurram
- oh yeah - design is the medium, while art is the message in and of itself. Tada!Khurram
- bollocksfrancoisfido
- but why?Khurram
- Art is that which answers the question.Horp
- too reductive, like answering art as unicum, or self-expression.francoisfido
- That's not a valid argument to dismiss something cost its said in a few words.Khurram
- and what the fuck is unicum?Khurram
- masterbationMrDinky
- unicum: unique example, specimen
(as per dinky 1 post below)francoisfido - well that's even more preposterous then. You've taken random analogies to equate to what i saidKhurram
- here i would like to know where the 'art' resides in the work of joshua davis. 'process' alone is not art.francoisfido
- I'm not following your reductive argument. Would you prefer an essay on it? I'll try and get this in a longer wayusKhurram
- That's not what you asked. Anyway, so "Design is a conduit for a message once removed, whereas art stands as the message in its immediacy"Khurram
- message in its immediacy"Khurram
- I prefer my first answer. Design is how you present the information, art IS the information.Khurram
- that makes more sense. but my question was in relation to the way 'art' has been used here in re PrayStation.francoisfido
- i like your 2nd one much better,
art is also a medium.francoisfido - Art is not the medium. Design is the medium. Art is the message in and of itself. In its very artefact it is the messageKhurram
- This is why "originals" are sanctified. Because it is an artefact.Khurram
- i accept your theoretical definition of art, i hope you are happy. but like i tried to say, it's not what i was asking.francoisfido
- Shut the fuck up you bunch of whiners. this discussion never ends and only makes you look retarded.janne76
- dyspl0
this article is absolutely uninteresting, and well that's the main point to focus.
being heavily tattooed as an argument against J.davis is childish, and very weird for a professional journalist. the same goes with the everyone could do it.... is what we have to fight everyday? you know "now with photoshop every one could do it"....
In term of crticism I would be more interested in seeing an article about established studios doing work for companies / countries that clearly questions the problem of ethic in our job. fox ex psyop chinese olympic games campaign (which were great, but..), the tazer website currently in EC part, and having the pros and cons of doing such projects.
- what the fuck do you know about "journalism"?Khurram
- I know a bit about graphic design, which is the subject of the article right?dyspl
- sooo knowing that I might be able to decide weither or not the argument or good or bad. IMOdyspl
- IYO. Glad you can see that. Cos you made a comment on professinal journalism.Khurram
- honestly argument put is this article are weak for a JOURNALIST don't you think? this what was I meant, no more.dyspl
- It's just a dude's personal opinion on an event he attend. Designed to be controversial.Khurram
- If you disagree with it, furry muff, don't know where "professional journalism" comes into itKhurram
- it's not even controversial, there are not argument ni it. You post above mine as more argument than the article.dyspl
- wait, did you write that article? you seem pretty sensitive on the "journalism" criticismdyspl
- OMG IT'S SHIT!!Khurram
- No, i just think you have trouble distinguishing what is "journalism" and what is an opinion pieceKhurram
- As well as the difference between a magazine and a newspaper.Khurram
- you should take a break. having a hard day today?dyspl
- srsly "an opinion piece" don't kid me... It's an article in the creative review blog. It has to be printed to be journalism?dyspl
- *sigh*. You just don't get it...Khurram
- Khurram, i see your point. But having tattoo's doesn't have to do anything with the work.janne76
- so it is retarded opinion.janne76
- feel free to let me know what I might miss here in a post V. those notes a are too small, anoying as hell.dyspl
- But it's funny, that's writing, HAHA!!! HUMOUR!!! Takin piss... One man's opinionKhurram
- one bitter man's opinion hiding behind CR.dyspl
- Well, you can charicaturise him however you want. I just see a dude aggrieved that a Typo conference left him none the wiser vis-a-vis aka about typoKhurram
- wiser vis-a-vis aka about typoKhurram
- DuhDuhDuh0
My two cents here, and I aint "hatin", I have significant respect for JD, shit, I learned how to program a real nice scrollbar class from his samples forever ago, but I wanted to comment on this part.
JD >> "maybe I've got it all wrong... but I thought working toward an identifiable visual style was something you wanted to achieve."
To clear the confusion (and you are wrong unless your intent here was to define yourself an an artist and not a designer), an artist, wants to achieve an identifiable style, most definitely, it helps with "identification" – a designer does not, it tends to leave room for the "concept". I just think you are an artist is all, especially if you are working 6 months in advance of a real job, and while I realize you deal with client issues, and tailor your work to fit their needs, it's still art at the end of the day, and not so much design.
That's an ok place to be though, and why not, Carson was a stylist, and an artist, and he killed print, maybe you killed the web?
- why the new account? show yourself!digdre
- This is NOEIS cos he repeated what NOEIS said.Khurram
- Yup, it's me, YOU GOT ME< OH NO!NONEIS
- who is NOEISRand
- You also outed yourself as a bigger troll for having read every single comment on every single post :DNONEIS
- Each designers have their own style.MrDinky
- who is NONEIS?neue75_bold
- exactly, usually called an 'approach'neue75_bold
- I recognize that name.juhls
- Yes Dinky, but the good ones try to resit the urge, JD, embraced his, that makes him an artist in my book.NONEIS
- Oh, i'm a HUGE troll. MASSIVE. Width of a coke can my son 8-)Khurram
- Embracing a style doesnt make you an artist. I am also an artist, my style is called crapworkMrDinky
- Well, considering how quickly you responded to my post "outing" me, i'd say 40 of OE.NONEIS
- not sure what that means?Khurram
- and by the way, i have ADD you insensitive arsehole!!Khurram
- So do I, *hug*NONEIS
- *hugz!!!!!******** fucking squirrels...Khurram
- neue75_bold0
I'd tend to side with CR a little bit here, regardless of his background and accomplishments, a man can't be measured solely by what has has done... this type of commentary is very relevant and these are the kinds of criticisms that I do like about Creative Review, vs a jock-riding, viewpointless publication like Grafik.. Why can't we question a mans motives, behavior and attitude? And the larger questions that arise from this being, what does this type of work actually say about what we value in our profession, is this really so important? Is Josh any different than any other opportunistic celebrity happy to make their next endorsement?
When I sift through a site like Be ha nce I feel flat, I feel that our generation is so far removed from the notion that commercial graphic design should actually being about communication.. It's so commodified now to just be a visual product, it doesn't need to mean anything, it just needs to be and that's ok... And sometimes the process itself supersedes the result, which is a bit of arty wankery if you ask me...
Our industry has clearly broadened itself so that there are so many more opportunities for these visual decorators, illustrators and photoshop artists to make a go of things on their own terms. But being a bit of an old traditional graphic purist, I too get sick of seeing certain visual styles and trends become so popular with the mainstream.. It's hard not to point the fingers sometimes at those who are seen as leading the pack and becoming the 'poster child' for these attitudes...
- good postBluejam
- agreed.janne76
- on the other hand, one may question, isn't it the work of marketeers?janne76
- what is the work of marketeers?neue75_bold
- Well you know, inevitably a man in any profession at some point ceases being inspired and runs out of inspirationKhurram
- because he is no longer inspired.Khurram
- And at that point, the man must re-invent himself. Like become a cage fighter or somethingKhurram
- Loved this perspectivefabricio2k
- giving designers a go to inspire the market of ringtones and poker sites.janne76
- as in, a lot of agencies force designers to design following a "trend".janne76
- Good post.Horp
- word.pascii
- well put, neue.Corvo2
- well saidarthur
- I'm well back here janne, but I'd say the decoration black hole is entirely the fault of designerskelpie
- gramme0
I don't have a strong enough opinion either way about JD's work (or CR Magazine for that matter) to register a vote for or against the commentary.
What is unclear to me, and pardon me if this has been addressed before, is what relevance JD's work has at a conference on typography. This is not a negative critique of his work, merely an observation that his work seems to be much more firmly ensconced in the realm of semi- to fully-abstract illustration rather than the artful setting of type.
- agreedyspl
- Is that to say that semi- to fully-abstract illustration is not artful?dMullins
- Simply because a computer was involved in ray tracing and whatnot?dMullins
- why does a dog lick his balls?Rand
- I'm saying no such thing, dMullins. Merely making the point that he doesn't seem to really be a typographer.gramme
- It's my understanding that this conference was primarily about type and typography, no?gramme
- I see JD being more relevant at an event that's more all-encompassing in the creative arts.gramme
- e.g. AIGA, etc.gramme
- I agree with you completely, its just that people have been talkin about him bein art or notdMullins
- SO I thought that's what your comment meant is all..dMullins
- Gotcha. Yeah I really don't care for that argument anymore. It's been done to death, you know?gramme
- Not to mention the fact that it's so deeply subjective, any objective reasons for/against become totally subsumed.gramme
- Khurram0
Yeah exactly Joshua Davis.
What has happened here with your emotional reaction, and everyone elses, is that youv'e taken it out of context of the original CR article. Which was quite funny and you were only mentioned in two sentences and it was one man's experience of a typographic show.
I can quite see why he said your stuff looks like a desktop screensaver and is "stale". Cos it is a bit dated, and there is a thing as being dated otherwise we'd still all be into pop art and surrealism, but we're not cos we move on.
Thats not to not give you fair doos. Cos like when i saw your stuff and Yugop's stuff back in the day, i went out and bought Friends of ED Flash 5 Foundation and taught me sen action script and was well nerd into it (i've since reinvented myself as a cage fighter and have no business here).
And you know, you're a successful dude and trend whore marketeers pay you dolla dolla bills to design things, and well done!
But the dude went to a typo conference to be enlightened with typo stuff and all he got was you with stuff that looks like desktop screensavers, it's not even that clever really. So i guess he said it was rubbish in a funny way.
- We've moved on from Pop Art? Have we? Did I not get the memo?Horp
- fucking lolfrancoisfido
- Every generation expresses itself in its own way, Tim.Khurram
- Pop Art was not a moment Khurram, Pop Art is a thread weaving through popular culture. Its not in the same campHorp
- camp as time defined artistic moments.Horp
- Khurram, stop being a idiotceiling_cat
- But you know what i meant. The hay-days in the 50s/60s. Same with impressionism, abstract minimalism etc...Khurram
- It's more conceptual now, though you can clearly weave a thread going back to the beginning, that's trueKhurram
- bwahahahahaneue75_bold
- "taught me sen"
Absolute class LOLstem
- dyspl0
^^not valid to me.
what about pollock's dripping then? kandinsky abstracts? mondrian?
yves klein works? leger?- mondrian is totally out of place in your post.digdre
- Yeah but all of them evolved and changed their style throughout their lives not kept doing the same finkKhurram
- but then they are artists and not designers. Like Josh who must flog the same horse cos thats what they wantKhurram
- Andy Warhol, there's one who got stuck on repeat doing the same crap, he shoulda given up long time agoKhurram
- but then he rode the edge between graphic design and art, and was astutely commercial, he was almost taking the pissKhurram
- taking the piss. Josh should take the piss instead of get all uppity talking about his love for the game.Khurram
- IMO of course.Khurram
- clearly.janne76
- your opinion.janne76
- mondrian - about the "everyo,e could do it", so it's not out of place.dyspl
- MrDinky0
The end.
I liked JD's work when it was for web site / screensaver stuff. As "art", no so much.
- not so muchMrDinky
- How can you really say that? Are you much familiar with his work? Guess not....dMullins
- Umm yes. I am. Personal taste. His work has its place but not with in my heart.MrDinky
- Are you going to ask me for my portfolio?MrDinky
- Do you know much about JD?dMullins
- Is this a trick question?
Kioken.MrDinky - K, well Im just wondering how you can fathom that his process / results are not "art".dMullins
- How is it art?MrDinky
- Self-expression. JD creates successful client communicate to their clients through powerful self-expression.dMullins
- Horp0
The problem with the industry today is that it evolves so rapidly that amazing breakthroughs such as Joshua Davis' original work leave only the visual evidence, which dates and becomes old very quickly. I'm no fan of Joshua Davis' work but I think CR is very childish if it chooses only to look at the artifacts and forgets completely that the artifacts were once the result of something totally new and groundbreaking.
CR should be less juevenile in it's journalistic approach.
I once saw Cool Herc do a set at a hip hop festival. He was shit. Just a fat old man sat behind a couple of turntables, literally just playing one record after another and cross fading. Pitched between dazzling sets by the best scratch DJs of the time he seemed pathetic and people booed. It was easy to deride him for his poor skills, bit to do so would be to forget entirely that Cool Herc was the first person to ever even think about using two turntables, linked by an old theatre lighting fader he had found discarded behind a playhouse in Manhattan.
Respect should go to people for the innovation, even if the results of their moment pale over time as other advances are made.
We might as well cast scorn on the bloke who invented the lightbulb for making such a shitty, dull, horribly yellow piece of crap.
- hear, here..neue75_bold
- repect !typist
- excellent point.airey
- well putFallowDeer
- +2BaskerviIle
- wait, before you know it Khurram is going to tell you you don't know anything about journalism.janne76
- ooh, janne, i haven't seen this side of you before. It's well sexy!Khurram
- CR still has favourtes who actually seem okay at best but seem to get features everytime they fartbabaganush
- Khurram0
By the way Timothy Spencer, all Americans are saying "Wanker" these days.
It's become a hipster thing.
- Khurram0
HAVE ANY OF YOU DONE ANY WORK TODAY???!!!
I HAVEN'T!!!
- I blame youMrDinky
- I've been on hold with the Australian Embassy for 4 hours..neue75_bold
- I blame my ADDKhurram
- the pipes of workflow are cloggedrzrffglyr
- i have weekend.digdre
- ps - do any of you know a reliable internet source for Dextroamphetamine???Khurram
- omg, you're moving to australia snuggles, good for you!Khurram
- PrayStation0
iCanHazQBN nil... I think David Carson is the guy you need ping for that question. That guy is permanent Graphic Design Fame Booty Call.
- hahaukit
- Hahahahajevad
- David Carson? That guy who used to come on after Conan?iCanHazQBN
- No, the fool who used a photocopier and some really bad type and became a movement. Man.MrT
- He never heard of herpes?ceiling_cat
- I'll take that to mean "a lot"Rand
- francoisfido0
*yawn
- albeit good effort, lasses.francoisfido
- Francois you should write for the Creative Review.Horp
- pisstake?francoisfido
- so elaborate. i really got some insight now. thx.janne76
- Yes, it was a pisstake.Horp
- thanks for the meaningful contributionJosev
- Rand0
I'll leave the moral and esthetic judgements to others and just say that autonomously generated, resellable designer fetish items are the way to go if you want to make money
- Its the money that really gets all your goats, isn't it.Horp
- let me know if I should keep writing..neue75_bold
- Pity for the the fools who have the cash to spare on frippery, kudos to the man who sells it.Horp
- I've been looking for something like this for yearsRand
- LOL Buy two, one for the sitting room one for the study.Horp
- tom ford approvesjanne76
- emukid0
the comments section is where all the action is.
". but let me ask you... if what I do is so easy... why am I one of only a few doing it ? If what I'm doing has brought me a great portfolio of clients... speaking at conferences around the world, each month, since 1999... write ups in magazines... and if it is truly so easy... and I'm not really a good designer... then how have I fooled everybody for so long ? What am I going to do ?... because just last month I got an e-mail from WACOM... seems I've fooled them too. I just finished a cover for Computer Arts Magazine... the cover.... what fools... seems like I've fooled them to.
please e-mail me the answers Holli... please. If I'm such a horrible designer and a complete egotistical asshole... how have I been able to CON people for so long... and the next thing I want answered is... if it's so easy and has brought me success... then why isn't everybody doing it ? seems like an easy road to fame and fortune."
- gramme0
"Well, I've got some advice for you little buddy. Before you point your finger you should know that I'm the man. If I'm the man then he's the man, and you're the man as well..."
- *well nowgramme
- u be da manutopian
- there's a lot of men around your partscalculator
- heh hehcalculator
- It's a quote from a Tool song.gramme
- ukit0
I still don't see the issue here. People who call themselves critics (and man, that's a nice job, wish I could land it;P) are paid to do exactly what the guy did, say what they think about stuff.
Is he an asshole? Sure, maybe. But he could just as easily go to a Coldplay concert and say, Coldplay are a bunch of pathetic idiots and no one would be criticizing him for expressing his view. Now personally I hate Coldplay but I like Joshua Davis but you get my point, it's just a guy writing for a magazine.
